Wednesday, December 10, 2008

Murders in Mexico Double in 2008

The New York Times reports that the murder rate in Mexico during 2008 has doubled since the previous year. We recently talked about Tijuana.

Killings linked to Mexico’s drug war have more than doubled this year compared with 2007 and are likely to grow even further before they begin to fall, Attorney General Eduardo Medina-Mora said Monday.

The prosecutor tied the sharp increase in deaths to a battle for control among cartels and a power vacuum created by a series of high-profile arrests and seizures.

The number of gangland killings reached 5,376 from the beginning of the year until Dec. 2, a 117 percent increase over the 2,477 killings in the same period in 2007, Mr. Medina-Mora said in a luncheon meeting with foreign correspondents.

I was especially interested to see the statistics of "Mexico’s overall homicide rate last year, 11 deaths per 100,000 people, was a small fraction of the rates in Colombia, Guatemala, El Salvador and Brazil, he said." That makes the U.S. with 5.5 seem like Disneyland by comparison. Of course, you know how I feel about statistics.

It's not easy for poor Mexico, living in the shadow of its giant neighbor to the north.

Taking on the cartels that supply most of the illegal drugs consumed in the United States has been a frustrating exercise for Mexico. Officials complain that the guns the criminals use are coming from the United States and that the billions of dollars in drug profits have corrupted many institutions in Mexico.

So what does that mean? Not only are the guns in the U.S. flowing into the U.S. black market, they also supply Mexico? This does come as a bit of a shock because I've been told that the illegal guns in America come from countries like Mexico in shipments of drugs. But, suddenly we have a different theory. The incredible abundance and availability of guns in America flows out, in a type of cross-commuting. Drugs come in, guns and money go out.

Something must be done. Do you agree?


  1. "ot only are the guns in the U.S. flowing into the U.S. black market, they also supply Mexico? This does come as a bit of a shock because I've been told that the illegal guns in America come from countries like Mexico in shipments of drugs."

    Guns are durable and valuble goods, I'm sure SOME guns come from America and go into Mexico, so I'm not going to say "It doesn't happen"

    But now think of the legal framework in place here. The drug trade across the Southern Boarder is a VOLUME buisness. They are smuggling in a few joints, or a rock of crack, they're smuggling in TONS of the stuff every year. How could it be possible to match such a flow with guns going back over the boarder without sending up a HUGE flag to the ATF?

    Really you can't. We're paying the cartels in CASH. The Cartels take the cash and give it to the military and Police who we all know can be bought and sold, for guns.

    There have been many exchances and seizures of fully-automatic rifles from the cartels in Mexico crossing the US boarder. What's more likely, it was a $9,000 Transferable class III gun bought in the US, or it was bought for $300 from a soldier who knew he could report it as "lost" or "Broken" without reprimand if he shared some of the cash with his superior?

    You should be familiar with Occam's Razor's_razor
    "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the most likely."

    Also another thing to point out is if drugs are comming from Mexico, then drug availability and usage should be higher there than here. I belive that's correct.

    If the crime guns are comming from the US, why isn't the same true. why would we have less crime here than Mexico if we're supplying the tools of the trade?

  2. Okay Mike,

    So what do we do here? If we shut down the border, all those poor illegal immigrants can't get here to send back millions to their families.

    If we shut down the border so guns can't flow back into Mexico, neither can those illegal immigrants get back to visit their families?

    So tell us what we should do?

  3. Bob, I'm afraid the only solution is to reduce the number of guns. I think it was in some of my very first posts that I said that and here we are again. Too many guns getting into the wrong hands, that's the problem. Reduce the number, that's the solution.

  4. Mike,

    Reducing the number of guns isn't the only solution, it's the only solution you agree with - big difference.

    You continual duck one aspect of this issue that I find appalling in a ex-U.S. Marine--the Constitution for the United States.

    The 2nd amendment clearly defines the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
    But because some people can't play nice and obey the law, you want to infringe upon everyone's rights.

    I'll ask again, if the controls you advocate for firearms would be applied to every other right, would you be willing to support them?
    One blog post a month, no private conversations, all correspondence must go through government channels, no right to assemble without a government permit (including family in your own home - ala prior D.C. ban).

    Also how about answering the questions about illegal immigration and the border?

  5. I was in Mexico and offered the purchase of a select fire HK G-3 assault firle for $600 dollars in a cantina by a man who had kept his issue rifle after he left the Mexican army.

    I think that you're believing Mexican politicians at their word on anything is really fookin silly. They are all criminals.

    Mexicans are afraid of the populace being armed because it's a tyrannical dictatorship.

    Dateline 10/12/2008

    Mexican police on Friday shot and killed six peasants during and after an operation to end the popular occupation of an archaeological tourist site near Miguel Hidalgo, Chiapas.
    The site at Chinkultic had been occupied by members of its surrounding villages since 7 September, following what villagers saw as its neglect by the INAH (Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia) - the state institution charged with maintaining the country’s thousands of ruins sites - and the concentration of profits from tourism in the municipality (one of the poorest in Mexico) outside of its inhabitants.
    The municipality of La Trinitaria, which encompasses Miguel Hidalgo and Chinkultic, ranks as one of the very poorest in Mexico. Some days before the successful eviction of the occupiers on Friday, villagers had successfully apprehended, detained and disarmed some 77 policemen sent to arrest the occupation’s “ringleaders”.
    Although the deaths were written off by the state and federal police as an unfortunate necessity of the rescue of their officers, weapons and the site itself, evidence is now beginning to surface of some of the deaths happening a long way from Chinkultic and following its return to the police.
    La Jornada today quotes Eloísa Margarita Espinosa Morales, a woman who was travelling with her husband in his pickup truck carrying injured villagers from Miguel Hidalgo towards the nearest hospital in Comitán (some 40km away). A police roadblock detained them several kilometres up the road and although they stated the intention of their journey, the police told them to “get down on the ground, you dogs!” before taking Morales’ husband into wasteland and firing seven fatal bullets into him.
    “You don’t mess with the government, you idiots”, the police told the truck’s passengers. When Morales protested her innocence, she was robbed of her jewlry and told to “shut up if you don’t want to die like those fools”.

    You really need to get out more, mike. Skip Vegas and go to Chiapas next time you make it over an ocean. You might learn something.

    youtube movie here

  6. Oh, just for giggles.

    What country produces about the largest percentage of cheap pocket pistols used in crime? The revolvers you can buy for 50 bucks and semi-autos that cost 150?

    Italy. Brasil and Spain are up there, but as to volume on the market, Italy is currently ahead.

    You're part a conspiracy to arm the criminals of the world, mike, and you probably weren't even aware of that.

    I shall now go giggle maniacally. Write your representatives in Italy and complain and leave us alone. You're lucky we don't bomb you or at least launch a few cruise missiles at Rome out of principle.

    Oswald used a Carcano and many a criminal has used a Beretta or Tanfoglio.

  7. So Mike, how do you reduce the number of guns in criminal hands, without leaving the lawful and responsible people defenseless to the criminals who acquire guns outside the law?

    Note that Mexico, UK, and just about all of Eastern Europe have disastrously high violent crime rates, but virtually no "availability" of firearms, except through the black market.

  8. Weerd,

    Can't we launch at least one cruise missile at Rome for the JFK-Carcano thing???

    Italian citizens exported dangerous assault rifles, some that had been used in battles so were honest to god assault rifles, to peaceful America.

    Nuremberg II ???

    Whose the largest manufacturer of not only switchblade knifes, but kits to sell in countries where you can't legally buy an assembled switchblade knife????

    Italy again.

    Mikey. You got some splainin' to do!

  9. Bob, I did answer the question about what to do with the illegal immigration and the border. I said we need to reduce the number of guns. I need to consider Weer'd's question about how to do that without leaving the citizens defenseless.

    I'm afraid to even say this, but you brought it up Bob. I think we need to start talking about the 2nd Amendment. I know you're all getting angry already at the mere mention of it, but take heart. For you guys it'll be like fighting with an unarmed opponent, you know so much more about all this than I do. It should be a cakewalk for you. Keep an eye out for a new post - soon.

  10. Mike,

    I don't know how reducing the number of guns deals with illegal immigrants unless you are saying do anything to accomplish that.

    That doesn't sound like you. Maybe I'm a little slow, but how about spelling it out for me.

    Do we cut off the flow of illegal immigrants?

    Do we prevent them from returning to see their families?

    Re start talking about the 2nd amendment--WTF?? Seriously Mike what do you think we've been talking about all this time?

    When you say we need to reduce the number of guns- you are talking about taking away people's rights under the 2nd amendment.

    I not getting angry as so much as frustrated. You seem like an intelligent man but you don't seem to want to debate intelligently.

    Weer'd, Tom, Nomen, others and I have present fact, statistics, data, arguments and logic over and over again. We've, sorry to say, have proven that your points aren't valid over and over again.

    Easy availability of a common refrain but prior to 1965 firearms were available by MAIL. All a person had to do was swear that (s)he wasn't a convicted felon or if underage had parental consent.

    Now tell me that today it is easier to get firearms without lying.

    Mike, I don't want a cakewalk of an argument, I want you to wake up and see the truth. If you are going to do another post, can I make some suggests as to what you address, provided you are willing to do some research?

    Effectiveness of gun control in U.K.
    Effectiveness of gun-control in Australia
    Effectiveness of gun-control in Washington D.C., Chicago, Philly compared to Salt Lake City, Fairbanks Alaska, etc

    Historical trends of governments that adopted strict gun control

    Don't want a cake walk, want you to open your eyes

  11. Bob, You asked, "That doesn't sound like you. Maybe I'm a little slow, but how about spelling it out for me."

    Here it is: I said the flow of guns from the US to Mexico is a problem. The answer is diminish the number of guns. You said should we then close the borders so the guns can't flow there and the illegals can come here. I answered, no don't close any borders just diminish the number of guns.

    That was more or less the flow of our zig-zag discussion. The only question left unanswered is how would I accomplish it?

  12. Mike,

    Sorry, but the question isn't just how to stop the flow of firearms. That is easy to do.

    The hard part is to phrase the question correctly.

    How about this how to stop the flow of firearms that does not "interfere" with a law abiding person's right to keep and bear arms.